Episode 255: Why “tough love” doesn’t work with substance use and how to set boundaries that actually help with Heather Ross
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Our culture teaches all of us to think that when somebody is struggling with substance use, the correct response is tough love, because it’s better to let them hit rock bottom than to enable their behavior. My guest today is Heather Ross, host of the Living While Loving Your Child Through Addiction podcast. She’s also a dear personal friend. And we’re letting you eavesdrop on one of the many raw conversations we’ve had about the devastating impact
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that the tough love mindset can have on both the giver and receiver, and also why compassion is not the same as enabling. You’ll hear Heather’s firsthand account of exactly what changed when she shifted her goal from controlling the situation with her daughter to simply connecting with her. Her story is both heartbreaking and inspiring because despite losing her daughter to a fentanyl overdose, she will never regret.
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that she was able to become a safe place for her daughter and a source of unconditional love. Buckle up because this one’s a tearjerker. But whether you’re a parent, a partner, or just wondering how to show up for somebody that you love, you’ll walk away from this conversation with a clear understanding of how to release fear, find your ground, and support your person without losing yourself.
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My name is Colleen and I’m a mindful drinking coach helping high achieving professional women permanently reduce their alcohol consumption by 80%. Join me each week for evidence-based holistic strategies to regulate your nervous system, balance your dopamine, and activate the growth mindset that makes you so powerful in other areas of your life so you can stop worrying about losing control and trust yourself again. oh
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Get happy, not sober. It’s not about the alcohol.
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Heather, thank you so much for joining me on the show. Again, this is, I think you’re my first repeat guest, also one of my very dear friends. So I’m privileged to have you and I’m excited to have this conversation. Would you do the honors and introduce yourself to the audience? Yeah, well, thank you for having me on Colleen. My name’s Heather Ross. I’m a family recovery coach.
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And I started doing this work because my daughter, Helena, started struggling with substance use when she was in her early teens. And at the same time, there was also depression, anxiety, an eating disorder, self-harm. It was completely overwhelming. I had never experienced anything like that in my life. And it seemed like everywhere that I turned for help, I was getting this messaging.
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that to make sure that I didn’t enable that she had to hit rock bottom, that she wouldn’t accept help until she was ready, that there was nothing that I could do but focus on myself. And all that just made me feel even worse about things. And so I was trying to control everything, which just created absolute chaos in my home.
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The more I tried to control my daughter, the more she resisted and did that, you know, she started running away and getting trouble with the law. And so eventually I decided that, you know, what I was doing wasn’t working. It was having a huge impact on my health. My hair was falling out. I was sick all of the time. I ended up quitting my job because I just, really wasn’t even functional anymore. The stress.
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was just really having a huge impact on me. But in that space, I finally had the time to find something called CRAFT, which stands for Community Reinforcement and Family Training. And it’s a very science-backed, compassionate approach, really, that leverages your connection. So for the first time, I...
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It was like, okay to show my daughter love, even though she was really struggling. And I was able to start taking actions that more were aligned with my values instead of doing things that were completely against my values. But I felt like it was my only choice that I didn’t have any other options. And by that time, my daughter really hated me. So I had a lot of work to do on our relationship.
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And I can’t blame her. um The way that I was showing up um was not easy for either of us. And so I had to build back trust with her. And I was able to do that. I was able to really just accept her for where she was. And at that time, she had struggled with being unhoused. She was using heroin and meth. mean, things had really escalated.
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But even in the middle of all that, I was still able to repair our relationship, build that trust. She knew that she could come to me when she needed support. Eventually, she started working on her own recovery. I was leading by example, finally doing the work that I wanted my daughter to do. So I kind of had a better understanding of what I was asking of her. And she eventually went to treatment.
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and she had about 18 months in recovery when, you know, some things started happening in the sober living house that she was in. And it really just turned her world upside down. And she had a reoccurrence of use and got fentanyl. This is the hard part of the story. And it led to a fatal overdose. You know, she was only 21. And, you know, most people think that that is
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the worst case scenario. And, you know, I think the worst case scenario would have been had I not had the chance to make up for all of those years of struggle, had I not got the opportunity to feel proud of how I was showing up, you know, to know that she passed away, knowing that she was loved and supported unconditionally. You know, my daughter called me to tell me that she had a reoccurrence of use and got kicked out of her sober living home.
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And when we hung up the phone that day, you know, I was able to be really loving and kind on the phone, but fear took over after I hung up. But because of all of the work that I had done, I was able to identify that I was just scared, you know, and that it was coming out as anger, but I wasn’t really angry with her. And I just texted her and told her that I loved her and supported her and we would get through this. And it was our last interaction ever.
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And I’m so grateful that I had the tools that I needed to look inward instead of blaming her that day. So I don’t have any regrets. And that’s why I do this work. wanted more parents to know that they had another option besides tough love, that there was another way to show up that really aligns with how many parents feel.
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And because no matter what we do, there’s no guarantees. You know, we can’t guarantee the results of our kids, but we can guarantee how we show up. And with having these kinds of tools, a parent gets to feel good about knowing that they did everything that they could and they created the best possible conditions for their child to want to change.
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So one thing that you said that stuck out as kind of what is upside down in our cultural beliefs and response to what your daughter, Helena, was going through. You said I had to build trust back with her. And I know as a parent and the way I was raised, the thoughts in my head is, no, you have to earn my trust back.
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you have lost my trust. Can we dive into that? Yeah, that was such a great catch because that is what we’re taught, that um they have to build our trust back, that they’re the ones who are always in the wrong. But when I stopped and really looked at myself, I was so unpredictable because I didn’t know what to do. So I was constantly
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swinging from one extreme to the other. One minute I’m trying to be kind and understanding, and then I’m getting impatient because that hasn’t worked and I’m scared. And so then, you know, I’m in a rage. So I was completely unpredictable and you can’t trust an unpredictable person. I was completely dysregulated. I was blaming her for everything. Meanwhile,
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you know, looking back now, I can see I had a huge part in the chaos. You know, my inability to regulate myself and not knowing how to handle things like being very confrontational instead of collaborative caused a lot of the chaos. And so really looking at myself, I could see that, yeah, I definitely needed to earn her trust back. She was telling me all along things that weren’t okay with her.
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But because of all the messaging in our culture that if somebody’s struggling with substance use, they’re automatically wrong and we’re somehow better than them because we’re not or because maybe our, you know, my substance was work, it was more socially acceptable than, you know, that they’re always in the wrong. And I just started to see really my own part in things. And I think that made it
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so much more genuine, which is one of the reasons I was able to really repair our relationship and be closer than we were before even. Yeah, you’re speaking to the moral high ground that is, you know, the normal people who are not, you know, struggling with a uh non acceptable addiction. Like you mentioned, we all use mechanisms to cope with our stress.
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be it overworking or people pleasing to using substances or eating or all of the things. So you’re speaking to where what gets so dysregulating is for the person struggling, they’re not safe and they’re always wrong. And we put in like the number one thing, like you shouldn’t get help until you’ve absolutely quit using the substance.
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And if you do use the substance, you’re out. Like how does one even get kicked out of sober living? It’s like, that’s kind of like saying a person with cancer who has a remission that they can’t come back to cancer treatment. Like it’s so odd when you really look at it. Yeah, that’s a whole nother episode about the sober living. I’ve got a lot to say about that, but.
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I agree with everything that you just said. My daughter was feeling very unsafe with herself. I didn’t understand that. I didn’t understand anything to do with emotions because I didn’t like them and I avoided them at all costs. So was very hard for me to understand her struggle and how unsafe she felt. mean, that’s where a lot of it started. I really didn’t understand.
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trauma at all back then. I only thought of a person returning from war who has PTSD. didn’t really realize that things that had happened in her life had been very traumatic to her and it was just this buildup of things. But because I didn’t understand, I didn’t know how to support her. Yeah. So can you talk to me about what awareness or
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What had to click into place in your mind where you got to a point where you could accept responsibility for the lack of trust in the relationship? Like that’s just a big swing. And I can see how effective it was, but what had to fall? What did you have to realize? Yeah. So many things. wasn’t any.
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one single thing. think I was just so, by that time I was just so beat down. was willing to do anything. And, you know, I just happened to, at the same time I found out about Kraft, I happened to find this coach who really taught personal responsibility and self-reflection. And so I was really spending time, you know, cause I wasn’t working. had a lot of free time. was spending time every day.
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really just looking at myself and for the first time in my life really wanting to understand myself better, getting to know myself. And so it was really that work of
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trying to find out even who I was, what mattered to me. All of my identity was caught up in my job and being a mom and being a wife. I really didn’t have much of an identity outside of that. So kind of losing that with my daughter moving out and struggling and all these things happen, just turned my whole life upside down. And it was just...
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It was in order that to move forward from there in any kind of healthy way, I needed to really turn inside and figure out what was going on with me. Yeah. You speak to a broader lens of mental health. And I think that the biggest misperception in our culture is that we think some people have mental health and some people are struggling with mental health.
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And mental health is just like physical health or financial health. Like you got to work on that every single day. And if you’re not doing it and you’re experiencing a lot of stress as a result, like the call begins by looking, the call’s coming from inside the house. Like it sounds so counterintuitive that you would need to look within as a uh solution to deal with your daughter’s uh
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struggles with addiction and yet it sounds like that was the path for you. Yeah, there came this point where I thought, what if she never gets into recovery? You know, that’s possible. Some people never do. And how am I going to feel if a year from now or five years from now, I haven’t done anything to change? I want to make
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Thank God I thought this. I want to make the very most of the time that I have available. Because here I am also living in constant fear of her dying. And if I’m living in fear of her dying, yet doing things that push her away, like it doesn’t make sense. I want to have a relationship with my daughter. If she’s only available for 10 % of what everybody else is for available for a relationship, I’m going to maximize that 10%. And so it was
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identifying that I wanted to make the most out of what I had. And then even just going back to what you said about mental health, before I started doing this work, I thought people were either, they were either happy or they weren’t. And that it was something outside of me that decided whether I was going to be happy or not that day. Like I had to go out looking for something to help change my feeling state. But when I learned that
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I had control over that. I wanted to understand that and start using that in my life. And also, it really did help in the beginning that I was doing it strictly to be an example. Like, I’m like, okay, I’m going to do these things and hopefully she’ll see them and she’ll copy me. But eventually I started doing it for myself. that’s like when the magic really started happening was like, oh, I want to keep doing this because it feels good. And I like having this
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sense of power and control in my own life. Can you give just a couple of everyday real life examples? What is doing this mean? What do you want to keep doing? What did you need to do? For me, it started out as taking time every day to look at what I was thinking. Anytime I was upset,
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about a situation or even, you know, I would start my day off, you know, taking an inventory of what I was thinking, how that was impacting, how I felt, you know, which led to the actions that I was taking and the results that I was creating in my life. In the beginning, probably the first couple of years, I spent a lot of time on that every day until I just became really aware of my patterns, what things I was going to struggle with and
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When I didn’t feel good about something, I just stopped and took the time to work through it and look through my thoughts, feelings, and actions until I can make an intentional decision instead of being reactive to everything all the time. Yeah. And I want to just say, we became friends because I hired you as my coach.
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And I know what you’re talking about. So just want to like pull back the curtain because you’re speaking about like these thought models and how that can help you change what you think by changing what you see and asking different and better questions. Do you want to say anything about the thought models and how those work? Yeah, I’ll just say that the coach that I found was where I learned it from and
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You know, she taught that we have these unintentional subconscious models happening in our brain. Like there’s a circumstance in your life. You have thoughts about that circumstance, which creates your feelings. We take actions based on how we feel and that’s what creates the results in our lives. And most of the time we’re really unaware of that cycle. It’s happening in the background on autopilot.
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But when you stop and you look at that and you can see that, I’m really making choices when it feels like I’m not making choices, or I can see even if I can’t change this other person in my life and what they’re doing, what can I do? How can I work with this situation instead of just resisting it? Yeah. Yeah. So what you speak to is that there are actual tools. And I know as a uh
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Over thinker, I know you’re an analytical mind also, like these thought models almost turn your whole life into math equations and you can solve for different variables. It’s really quite powerful. Yeah, I mean, and I was an accountant before, so that way of being able to, I mean, like I can analyze into my feelings. This is great. But it was like this bridge that I needed to mind body connection. Like I couldn’t bridge the gap between where I was a person who didn’t want to feel anything.
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into a person who’s feel, you know, in touch with my emotions. That was like the perfect bridge for me to get to that place of being able to make that mind body connection again. Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about tough love and what we’re all taught, what tough love means, um, and how it changed. Yeah. I don’t even know what the opposite of tough love would be.
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Yeah, so I, to me, when I think about tough love, it’s gotten to be where people just say, it’s like, don’t do anything to help. You can’t show that person any love. Anything like that is enabling their substance use. You you’ve got to kick them out, turn your back on them, all of these things. And what I really don’t like about that is
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that it’s just this one size fits all black and white. It doesn’t take into consideration a person’s capabilities or their even humanity, right? We don’t wanna make things harder on people. You think about recovery capital, think of that like a bank account, the more capital you have, the easier it is to get into and stay in recovery.
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But tough love says we need to take all of that away from that person and we need to make them work as hard as possible to get help or they won’t really value or appreciate it. it like when I look at it now, I’m like, that just it doesn’t even make sense when you the way you approach anything else. But at the time, because I’ve been receiving this conditioning my whole life, you think movies, TV shows, anything you read.
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backs all of that up. I never really questioned it before. And I guess the opposite of that to me is really coming back to what would work for me? How would I want to be treated in this situation? What would I respond well to? What would I need? You know, I’ve heard that like a person is more likely to move
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towards an achievable top then move away from that rock bottom place. thinking about just that common humanity, that’s what keeps coming back to my mind. I’ve heard people call it soft love, I’ve heard other things, but just really treating people like you want to be treated. I also hear you using a term that I hear as recurrence of use.
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as opposed to relapse. And that sounds kinder. To me, tough love is making everything contingent on the lack of substance use. And so like, I’ll support you, I’ll give you food, I’ll give you shelter. If you use though, then you lose everything. It’s like making everything a gamble so that they can lose everything with one action.
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And we all know it’s hard to change a habit. know, I mean, it’s this expectation that they can’t get help or they cannot continue to receive help if there’s a recurrence of use goes against the fact that even addiction experts will tell you relapses, if that’s what you want to call it, are part of learning. That’s how we learn what works and what doesn’t work. We have to learn. this...
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setting people up where we’re going to take everything away from you and make you start over again. And then what that does to the psyche of the person who, God damn, they’re just fucking trying and they have one issue. And then that sends them back out because we take everything away from them. We tell them they have to start over. That’s like telling a kid on the last day of school who’s absent, you have to repeat the whole grade. And then we wonder why they get so beat down and cannot oh
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It’s just the disparity and the resources, just, they get tired. Yeah. And telling that kid, nothing you learn this year counts. oh You know, like the first time that I heard that, that, you know, when a person has a reoccurrence of use, it’s not like they lose all everything that they gained during that time. And
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that they’re in the best possible place to just continue on at that time. You know, it’s like I couldn’t even believe that I believe this other way. But again, I just don’t think I really questioned things before. That’s a big thing that this has taught me is to really question the things that I believe and ask myself like, why do I believe that?
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Is this really even my own belief or is this something that I just believe because I heard it over and over again? Well, and can you speak to that’s exactly why you were so stressed out because you were ignoring what your body was telling you that this doesn’t feel right. This doesn’t make sense. This isn’t working. And in order to not know that and go with, know, outsource your opinion, outsource your power,
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outsource your plan to whatever somebody’s handing you, you had to go against. Can you talk a little bit about as you look back why it caused so much stress to try to do the tough love and that route? Well, one thing is it’s interesting that my daughter and I were both completely disconnected from ourselves, but it was just playing out in different ways. And I would have said that we were so
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different from each other, but one thing this journey I went on of really self-discovery helped me to see was that actually we were really a lot alike. But it was so stressful because it’s not the kind of person that I wanted to be. wasn’t the kind of mom that I was before. I think about, I loved to read, but my daughter really didn’t love to read.
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but there was all of these, you know, they had to read a certain number of books and take these tests on them and she really struggled with it. And so I didn’t like yell at her and scream at her and, you know, punish her. I started reading books with her. You know, we would just take turns reading to each other and I got into all these books that we’re reading together. It became a way for us to connect. And I think about
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That became the approach that I took once I found craft. That was the kind of mom that I wanted to be. But this tough love approach went against everything inside of me. But I did it out of fear and because I felt like I had to and because all these experts in the world were telling me that that was what I had to do or I was killing my daughter. Oh my God, really? People say that, you never heard that like.
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um Somebody just commented on one of my posts recently about, know, I don’t think enabling is black and white. And I was talking about that and somebody commented and said, well, I’ve watched people love their kids into the grave. Yeah. You know, what a horrible thing for a parent to have to feel like. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been talking to parents and they just break down and cry.
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realizing that they don’t have to feel like they’re doing everything wrong all the time anymore. It’s so stressful under already unimaginably stressful circumstances. Yeah, I heard you talking on one of your recent podcasts about how when you are stuck in this tough love and problem solving, like there’s no safe moment where you can just be with your kid.
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You can’t even acknowledge that everything’s okay right now because they might not be okay. And I need you to listen and what’s coming in the future. We got to talk about what’s coming in the past and it robs you of the present moment. Yeah. And that was like, I was always just so uptight because I couldn’t act out. I wanted to, like, if I had a moment where she got a good grade or something, I couldn’t celebrate that because
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she wasn’t abstinent yet. And so I was constantly holding in my love and approval, which just made her feel worse. She was already, all this stemmed from how she was feeling about herself to begin with, which wasn’t good. Nobody’s self harming and having all of these symptoms when they’re feeling good about themselves. And everything that I was doing was just reassuring her that she was unworthy. You know, I got
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to interview her on my podcast just before she passed away. And one of the things she said when I asked her about like, what finally, you know, helped you to seek recovery. And she said, you know, I started to love myself and I felt like I deserved it.
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And everybody deserves that to know that they deserve a good life, no matter what’s happened. And unconditional love. Absolutely. And, you know, we we go to church and we talk about God’s unconditional love. But then we we don’t know how to apply that. And I think just to let ourselves off the hook as well, it’s fear. You know, if I don’t follow these
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policies of zero tolerance that uh I will lose her. Yeah. Yeah. mean, and I was my daughter’s person. I was her main support person. And to feel like she was losing me just made her feel even more unstable. And I can’t tell you how many times people have commented on my stuff that said, I was a person who received tough love and it was
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Horrible. Thank you for sharing that there’s another way Yeah Well, can you talk about what you do because I know you work with parents. Can you say a little more about that? Yeah, so, you know, I think there’s three parts to Working with parents. One of the things that we focus on is nervous system regulation that You know
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we have to be regulated ourselves. If we aren’t regulated, it doesn’t matter what skills we have or what we’re trying to do. We’re not going to be able to be intentional. So that nervous system regulation is important. And then there are skills like, you know, learning how to set boundaries, having uh positive communication, positive reinforcement, those kinds of skills. And then there is
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coaching to help implement those things. I find that most of the parents come to me with a brain full of information, but getting that information out of their brain and into use in the world with their child is really hard. And so it takes support to be able to do that. And then also support to see our brains are constantly telling us it’s not working, right? If
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Any part of it feels off, which doing new things always does. It feels like it’s not working and we want to quit. So it really helps to have somebody there to help you see what is working and just make minor adjustments to that moving forward.
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So talk to me about the program itself. I guess the first thing you would have to recognize is that there are things you can do. I think we feel so out of control when our children are struggling. And to recognize that doing the work on ourself can actually provide a safe space for the child to come back to it can have a direct impact on your child’s
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I mean, can you say more about what you see there? Yeah. You know, there’s things that we can do. The way we communicate with somebody, the way we acknowledge the progress they’re making, that’s motivating. We can help increase a person’s motivation to change the same way that we can demotivate a person by the way we’re interacting with them.
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there’s that narrative that there’s nothing that we can do. But when you think about even a parent taking care of themselves and their happiness no longer being dependent on their child is helping their child because their kids are already struggling with a lot of guilt and shame to see their parents struggle. So imagine what a relief it is when they see you
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happy and knowing that your mental health does not depend on them, right? Like having that freedom of knowing that you can be okay, no matter what happens. And people tend to kind of feel this like, oh, that’s not much, I’m really not doing anything. All of these things are huge and you put them together and you can make real lasting positive change. Yeah.
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And you got to experience that with Helena. Yeah, I mean, when I found Kraft and I started working with a coach and working on myself, I felt like my situation just felt so impossible. I really didn’t know if anything could possibly help us. And but I couldn’t give up. So I was willing to just keep trying.
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And it was amazing to me seeing that cause and effect that my changing the way I interacted with her immediately changed the way that she responded to me. And that story started to change like why I really can make a difference. And I hear parents say that to me all the time or they’ll say like, have you ever seen a situation this bad? I’m like, everybody feels that way. It feels impossible. But
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And there’s just so much hope that comes out of realizing, oh my gosh, there are things I can do. I can make a difference here. And you did make a difference. mean, you and Helena had a beautiful relationship. She did experience recovery. There was a reoccurrence of use. Yeah. The internet cut out for a second, so I didn’t hear the beginning of what you said. I said,
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You did make such a difference with Helena. You guys had a beautiful relationship, even at the time she passed away. She had an extended period of recovery and then there was a recurrence of use, which is actually a normal part. But your last words to her were loving and you had a good relationship with her. Yeah. you know, it’s chances are she would have worked through that.
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and, you know, learned from it and continued on with her life. It just happened to be during that time was when the death toll from fentanyl was really the worst that year. But your last text to her was not a rejection or an expression of disappointment. You were her safe place. Yeah, I’m so grateful for that.
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work that I had done leading. was kind of like everything I did led up to that moment, all of that hard work. And even in that just horrible moment of getting that news that my daughter had passed away, I felt gratitude. Like I had the wherewithal to thank. Thank God our last interaction was loving and I feel good about how I showed up for her. Yeah.
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Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I feel like I have a little personal relationship with Helena when we go on trips and she’s present and I know she is. And, and, um, I think you still have a beautiful relationship with her too. And she’s busy. She’s busy. It’s still on her terms. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. All right. So can you tell the audience how to find you if they want to work with you or just.
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You have a wonderful podcast. Give us the details. Yeah. My podcast is called Living While Loving Your Child Through Addiction. And my website is HeatherRossCoaching.com and I’m at Heather Ross Coaching on social media. Thank you so much for being here, Heather. Thanks, Colleen. All right. So thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. And here’s your call to action.
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First of all, if you’re a parent or you know somebody who has a child or a person struggling with addiction, please send them to Heather’s podcast. It is so helpful. And even if you don’t need it for your own personal use, if you like my show, you will love her show. I don’t know if you caught it in the episode, but she was my first real coach. She’s the one that taught me the tools that have allowed me to become the person I am today.
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I listen to our podcast, so I think you should too. And you do have an obligation to leave the light on at the end of the tunnel when you find a path that works. And so I’m going to ask you specifically to share this episode with someone you know who needs to hear it, because we all know somebody that is stuck in the chaos and the fear and the shame of substance use disorder with themselves or a loved one.
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And we need to normalize hope and help and support and tools and empowerment. You are not powerless. None of us are powerless. And we don’t have to buy into the story that tough love is the only way and that helping someone we love is enabling or that we have to draw a line in the sand and say, we won’t be in relationship or connection with somebody.
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who is still using whatever substance is giving them some relief. So think of the person, the beautiful face that needs to hear this episode and hit the share button and either send a text or a DM on social media, share this information, pay it forward. You can also leave a comment if you’re listening on Spotify or rate and review the show if you’re on Apple. Take the time to take an action.
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that either directly or indirectly expands the reach of this show and benefits somebody else today. And Heather’s information is in the show notes. So go there, find her podcast and start listening to her as well. And as always, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for being in my community. I so appreciate that you are here and you are listening and you are helping me ripple effect this emotional sobriety shit into the world.
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because it works, it’s freedom. So that’s it for this week. Just know I’m rooting for you and I hope you have a kick-ass week. I’ll see you on the next episode.